Comments on: Barking up the wrong tree on FDW legislation? http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html Comments, opinions and an occasional ramble Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:08:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Dr.Huang http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17837 Dr.Huang Thu, 05 Jun 2008 06:36:26 +0000 http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17837 Hi nancy, It is great that your maid get to go off whenever she requests. However not everyone is like you. How much easier if this day off is mandatory instead of waiting for the maids to ask their employers and depending on employers' generosity! For every reasonable employer like you there may be a few unreasonable ones who do not even allow their maids to go to the remittance or bank ( without shadowing them). If all the employers are like you, I am wasting my time on this day-off issue as I know from the bottom of my heart that you will treat them humanely with or without laws. Seriously even with laws, maids will still be abused! I meant no disrespect when asking why you let your maid go after 6 years. Any offense meant is regretted. Yes I also would not tolerate adultary with a family member ( or friend). Cheers Hi nancy,
It is great that your maid get to go off whenever she requests.
However not everyone is like you.
How much easier if this day off is mandatory instead of waiting for the maids to ask their employers and depending on employers’ generosity!
For every reasonable employer like you there may be a few unreasonable ones who do not even allow their maids to go to the remittance or bank ( without shadowing them).
If all the employers are like you, I am wasting my time on this day-off issue as I know from the bottom of my heart that you will treat them humanely with or without laws.
Seriously even with laws, maids will still be abused!
I meant no disrespect when asking why you let your maid go after 6 years. Any offense meant is regretted.
Yes I also would not tolerate adultary with a family member ( or friend).
Cheers

]]> By: nancy http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17835 nancy Thu, 05 Jun 2008 05:54:07 +0000 http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17835 Sorry for the confusion. The above post should end with the sentence ... Not everything has to be settled with a law. The last 2 lines should be deleted. (this old lady, yours truly, has still to learn editing properly) Sorry for the confusion. The above post should end with the sentence … Not everything has to be settled with a law.
The last 2 lines should be deleted. (this old lady, yours truly, has still to learn editing properly)

]]> By: nancy http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17833 nancy Thu, 05 Jun 2008 02:44:33 +0000 http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17833 Hi Dr Huang Correct me if I am wrong. I thought the issue now is whether we should have a law to give a day off each week/month to our FDWs or monetary reward in lieu of it. My view is that each case is different because some employers need the maid 24/7, so this law does not hold. My sharing was that if everybody can treat each other humanely then this law is not required, but as shared, reality was not what I hoped. I did not ask if she was happy for those exchanges, but each request (more home leave; time off; all public holidays she could meet her friends if she asked) was granted. She did not ask for a fully paid home leave but she got it as I too have paid leave, why couldn't she? So do you think, she was happy? I cannot answer for her; neither can you assume otherwise. I can sense you are passionate for the cause of the FDWs but again I say there are always 2 sides. Now to answer your question as to why I still send her packing after 6 years - Familiarity breeds contempt and it led to open defiance including adultery with a relative (his maid showed photos of my maid with my relative's husband in outings to places of interests like Sentosa). He did not bother to bring his wife and kids yet brought MY maid ! During a gathering when I spoke about thingking to send my maid off due to open defiance (not about this case as I did not know at that point of time), he turned very cold towards me. Coupled with this revelation I made the decision to terminate her. On hindsight now I know why she was so defiant - because she thought that her lover could protect her. If her standard of work is not so good maybe we can transfer her to another employer (as expectations differ with different employers) but if it is a character flaw then it's not responsible to burden another employer with this FDW. Didn't mean to reveal so much but since you asked I let you know the reason. So my point is if both employers and FDWs can act humanly, no such law is required - both parties need to know how to strike the balance. Unless you are in it yourself, you can never know the story. One last note - my current maid goes to jalan jalan every Sat and Sun for 3-4 hours and a whole day if required e.g. to the embassy to celebrate whatever festivals they may organise. If she asks, she will get it. Not everything has to be settled with a law is humaneeach household has diffethat she got it by accumulation. 6 years ago this was a non issue but we did it before time. Hi Dr Huang
Correct me if I am wrong. I thought the issue now is whether we should have a law to give a day off each week/month to our FDWs or monetary reward in lieu of it. My view is that each case is different because some employers need the maid 24/7, so this law does not hold. My sharing was that if everybody can treat each other humanely then this law is not required, but as shared, reality was not what I hoped. I did not ask if she was happy for those exchanges, but each request (more home leave; time off; all public holidays she could meet her friends if she asked) was granted. She did not ask for a fully paid home leave but she got it as I too have paid leave, why couldn’t she?
So do you think, she was happy? I cannot answer for her; neither can you assume otherwise.
I can sense you are passionate for the cause of the FDWs but again I say there are always 2 sides.
Now to answer your question as to why I still send her packing after 6 years -
Familiarity breeds contempt and it led to open defiance including adultery with a relative (his maid showed photos of my maid with my relative’s husband in outings to places of interests like Sentosa). He did not bother to bring his wife and kids yet brought MY maid ! During a gathering when I spoke about thingking to send my maid off due to open defiance (not about this case as I did not know at that point of time), he turned very cold towards me. Coupled with this revelation I made the decision to terminate her. On hindsight now I know why she was so defiant - because she thought that her lover could protect her. If her standard of work is not so good maybe we can transfer her to another employer (as expectations differ with different employers) but if it is a character flaw then it’s not responsible to burden another employer with this FDW. Didn’t mean to reveal so much but since you asked I let you know the reason.
So my point is if both employers and FDWs can act humanly, no such law is required - both parties need to know how to strike the balance. Unless you are in it yourself, you can never know the story.
One last note - my current maid goes to jalan jalan every Sat and Sun for 3-4 hours and a whole day if required e.g. to the embassy to celebrate whatever festivals they may organise. If she asks, she will get it. Not everything has to be settled with a law

is humaneeach household has diffethat she got it by accumulation.
6 years ago this was a non issue but we did it before time.

]]> By: Dr.Huang http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17827 Dr.Huang Wed, 04 Jun 2008 04:37:55 +0000 http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17827 Hi nancy, It is good that you allowed her to go back for 4 weeks instead of 2 weeks but that is your prerogative. Whether she is paid or not during her leave is also subject to contract and if you wish to pay more than the contract is also your choice. Having said that, it does not mean that your maid is happy to exchange rest days for that extra 2 weeks and those cash incentives and for not doing extra chores on Sat/Sun! Correct me if I am wrong but do you think that your maid would have wished for a rest day a week ( like everybody else) or even one day a month and not get extra 2 weeks leave and everything else as per the contract? I imagine myself as a worker working for a boss who says I cannot have any rest day for the whole year, but he will give me cash incentives on Christmas and New Year, and if I need to run errands, he MAY allow me some time off and he will not make me do extra chores on Sat & Sun ( but no day off) and for my annual leave he will allow me extra 2 weeks instead of 4 weeks! I know what I will opt for. After 6 years, why did you have to send her packing (back home)? If you do not want her to work for you anymore ( as you are entitled to do), why did you just ask her to find another employer who is willing to take her? Yes there are 2 sides to every story, but whose story requires more protection from our govt? Hi nancy,
It is good that you allowed her to go back for 4 weeks instead of 2 weeks but that is your prerogative. Whether she is paid or not during her leave is also subject to contract and if you wish to pay more than the contract is also your choice. Having said that, it does not mean that your maid is happy to exchange rest days for that extra 2 weeks and those cash incentives and for not doing extra chores on Sat/Sun!

Correct me if I am wrong but do you think that your maid would have wished for a rest day a week ( like everybody else) or even one day a month and not get extra 2 weeks leave and everything else as per the contract?

I imagine myself as a worker working for a boss who says I cannot have any rest day for the whole year, but he will give me cash incentives on Christmas and New Year, and if I need to run errands, he MAY allow me some time off and he will not make me do extra chores on Sat & Sun ( but no day off) and for my annual leave he will allow me extra 2 weeks instead of 4 weeks! I know what I will opt for.

After 6 years, why did you have to send her packing (back home)? If you do not want her to work for you anymore ( as you are entitled to do), why did you just ask her to find another employer who is willing to take her?

Yes there are 2 sides to every story, but whose story requires more protection from our govt?

]]> By: nancy http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17825 nancy Wed, 04 Jun 2008 03:07:31 +0000 http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17825 If only human beings can behave humanly all this ugliness will not surface. Some maids are just indispensable as reported in some earlier articles. So to have a law that makes it mandatory to give a day off is also not a solution. I agree some employers really dwell on slavery but it's a more complex issue for some others. My maid goes for a full month for her home leave (contract says only 2 weeks) and she's paid a full month that she's away while i have to fork out extra to get a replacement. She gets a good cash incentive for Christmas and Chinese New Year. She can have a day off when she needs to run personal errands. She's not required to do extra chores on Sat and Sun. After 6 years (3 contracts for 2 years each), I too had to send her packing as she had crossed the line. I am not saying I am a saint but my point is I had done my part but I was short changed too. Am I cautious with my new maid? I am but I still accord her the same treatment that my first maid had. I just hope she can respond humanly. So back to my first sentence - if only human beings can behave humanly all this ugliness will not surface. Sad to say reality tells me otherwise. There are always 2 sides to a coin. If only human beings can behave humanly all this ugliness will not surface. Some maids are just indispensable as reported in some earlier articles. So to have a law that makes it mandatory to give a day off is also not a solution. I agree some employers really dwell on slavery but it’s a more complex issue for some others. My maid goes for a full month for her home leave (contract says only 2 weeks) and she’s paid a full month that she’s away while i have to fork out extra to get a replacement. She gets a good cash incentive for Christmas and Chinese New Year. She can have a day off when she needs to run personal errands. She’s not required to do extra chores on Sat and Sun. After 6 years (3 contracts for 2 years each), I too had to send her packing as she had crossed the line.
I am not saying I am a saint but my point is I had done my part but I was short changed too. Am I cautious with my new maid? I am but I still accord her the same treatment that my first maid had. I just hope she can respond humanly. So back to my first sentence - if only human beings can behave humanly all this ugliness will not surface. Sad to say reality tells me otherwise.
There are always 2 sides to a coin.

]]> By: Dr.Huang http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17824 Dr.Huang Wed, 04 Jun 2008 03:02:00 +0000 http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17824 Hi, Familyman & Nedstark, thanks for your support. We should keep reminding our govt to do the Right Thing! Not the Economically convenient thing! Not just guided by the Economic Imperative! It should be so naturally that workers in civilised countries should have rest days but now we have to try so hard to explain this is needed( why?) Hi,
Familyman & Nedstark, thanks for your support.
We should keep reminding our govt to do the Right Thing!
Not the Economically convenient thing! Not just guided by the Economic Imperative!
It should be so naturally that workers in civilised countries should have rest days but now we have to try so hard to explain this is needed( why?)

]]> By: familyman http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17822 familyman Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:33:14 +0000 http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17822 yes, it is the way our politicians are ruled by economic concerns - not human rights. We have a buddhist (Mr Khaw) Catholics (George Yeo) Christians (Vivien) and we still have a cabinet who will put maids in the same category as people earning above $1600 - so that they will not get their day off and work 365 days a year. These folks are the poorest humans on earth, they are guests here and this is how we treat them. Now you know why MM Lee said if PAP was not in power our womenfolk could have become maids - because deep in his heart, he knows how bad a deal we Singaporeans are treating them, and we all get away with it with our govt blessings! Indentured slaves, and we are so blind to it. And we continue to give ourselves reasons and justifications not to do the Right Thing, the Godly thing. Just so that we keep the economy humming and not spoil the good life of the working moms....... yes, it is the way our politicians are ruled by economic concerns - not human rights. We have a buddhist (Mr Khaw) Catholics (George Yeo) Christians (Vivien) and we still have a cabinet who will put maids in the same category as people earning above $1600 - so that they will not get their day off and work 365 days a year.
These folks are the poorest humans on earth, they are guests here and this is how we treat them. Now you know why MM Lee said if PAP was not in power our womenfolk could have become maids - because deep in his heart, he knows how bad a deal we Singaporeans are treating them, and we all get away with it with our govt blessings!
Indentured slaves, and we are so blind to it. And we continue to give ourselves reasons and justifications not to do the Right Thing, the Godly thing.
Just so that we keep the economy humming and not spoil the good life of the working moms…….

]]> By: Ned Stark http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17821 Ned Stark Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:07:48 +0000 http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17821 Anyway Aaron, contracts themselves are also governed by laws. No matter how well drafted contracts do lead to civil suits for whatever reasons (breach, interpretation of terms etc). Thus having a law or not doesnt result in more costs. Anyway Aaron, contracts themselves are also governed by laws. No matter how well drafted contracts do lead to civil suits for whatever reasons (breach, interpretation of terms etc). Thus having a law or not doesnt result in more costs.

]]> By: Ned Stark http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17820 Ned Stark Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:05:19 +0000 http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17820 I would agree with the Dr here. The inequality of bargaining power would mean that the legislature should intervene to ensure that such a clause is incorporated into such contracts. Bargaining power does not lie in a contract, rather a contract, more specifically its terms; are a product of the bargaining powers of the parties. The legislature has intervened in many instances to regulate terms in contracts and there is no compelling reason why the legislature should not in this instance intervene. If there is a problem with ignorance of rights then this problem should be tackled head on. One must not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I would agree with the Dr here. The inequality of bargaining power would mean that the legislature should intervene to ensure that such a clause is incorporated into such contracts. Bargaining power does not lie in a contract, rather a contract, more specifically its terms; are a product of the bargaining powers of the parties. The legislature has intervened in many instances to regulate terms in contracts and there is no compelling reason why the legislature should not in this instance intervene.

If there is a problem with ignorance of rights then this problem should be tackled head on. One must not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

]]> By: Dr.Huang http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17817 Dr.Huang Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:26:52 +0000 http://aaron-ng.info/blog/barking-up-the-wrong-tree-on-fdw-legislation.html#comment-17817 Hi Aaron, familyman & Heng, My views about this is already well known and I have already blogged about this here: http://nofearsingapore.blogspot.com/2008/05/no-days-off-for-fdw-foreign-domestic.html MOM has replied to me with the usual perfunctionary statement that they have referred my letter to someone senior in MOM ( or something to that effect). Guys, in an unequal power relationship ( eg Sg employer and a FDW from Indon who has already borrowed so much money to pay the many middle-men involved in coming here ), she is in no position to scrutinise the contract or even if she understands her contract, she can bargain for her day-off to be compensated with a reasonable amount? Employers are still keeping the maids passports and sometimes even her bank book and if the maid so much as shows a black face, the employer packs her straight to the airport, cancels her workpermit and sends her back by the cheapest budget airline home. She still has to pay off her debts! If Sg aspires to be a civilised society, how can we not protect the weak and defenceless ones in our midst? I think if the govt does not do the right thing, NGO's can do things like monitor that FDW's are compensated decently for forfeited rest days and also that they indeed volunteerily gave up rest days in lieu of money. MOM or agencies can match those FDW's who would forgo rest days for money with employers who are not willing to give rest days. Or, FDW's on rest days can be pooled to substitute those FDW's families feel that a FDW is indispensable 365 days a year . Of course they must be paid and MOM must allow these FDW's to work in another household in such special weekends! I am disappointed by MOM, by Sgporeans lack of response and also that cyberspace is mainly just for ranting. Hi Aaron, familyman & Heng,
My views about this is already well known and I have already blogged about this here: http://nofearsingapore.blogspot.com/2008/05/no-days-off-for-fdw-foreign-domestic.html

MOM has replied to me with the usual perfunctionary statement that they have referred my letter to someone senior in MOM ( or something to that effect).

Guys, in an unequal power relationship ( eg Sg employer and a FDW from Indon who has already borrowed so much money to pay the many middle-men involved in coming here ), she is in no position to scrutinise the contract or even if she understands her contract, she can bargain for her day-off to be compensated with a reasonable amount?

Employers are still keeping the maids passports and sometimes even her bank book and if the maid so much as shows a black face, the employer packs her straight to the airport, cancels her workpermit and sends her back by the cheapest budget airline home. She still has to pay off her debts!

If Sg aspires to be a civilised society, how can we not protect the weak and defenceless ones in our midst?

I think if the govt does not do the right thing, NGO’s can do things like monitor that FDW’s are compensated decently for forfeited rest days and also that they indeed volunteerily gave up rest days in lieu of money. MOM or agencies can match those FDW’s who would forgo rest days for money with employers who are not willing to give rest days.

Or, FDW’s on rest days can be pooled to substitute those FDW’s families feel that a FDW is indispensable 365 days a year . Of course they must be paid and MOM must allow these FDW’s to work in another household in such special weekends!

I am disappointed by MOM, by Sgporeans lack of response and also that cyberspace is mainly just for ranting.

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