You say PA is sufficient…I say it is not. It is subjective. You say eat maggie mee can survive, I say man needs more than maggie me. There is not much to talk further we all know what the amount is for PA. You can survive on that I cannot so I must be one pampered human.

::::This recession will likely last 2 or 3 years. Beyond that, it becomes a Depression and we can deal accordingly::::

I think giving aid is not just the flick of a switch – lets give aid tomorrow. The system has to be in place, the debates on how to do it has to take place as a society we have to know how, who, when to help and the people need to know what is in place so they can also help themselves. See the govt has this way of saying everything is in place…but you go to the ground…there are many issues. Get workfare must contribute to CPF – end up with less cash to spend on necessities….and so on.

I’m doing a piece on rental flats – and it will show just how complex putting help in the hands of the people who need it is. The PAP govt approach to minimise abuse actually end up deny flats for people who need it. You can read Leong Sze Hian’s article in online citizen on that but I will explore this further.

In recent years, the govt has been “forced” to give help. With their philosophical leanings, this is something they won’t do unless necessary. So Comcare, Workfare, etc have been put forth but I think it is always one step behind. You can say nobody is dead yet, it is good for people to struggle a little. But I think it is more like people are struggling a lot when you see 8% defaults on HDB and 30,000 defaults on utilities. I prefer the root cause which I believe is the income gap be solved first then we will have very little of the other problems….but we have been struggling with a ballooning income gap for more than a decade – now the govt has to fix the consequences of that.
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I did in the past write about the need to do more…and indeed the govt has done more but not at the pace that I felt was needed. But the time for being slow and conservative is over with this sharp and deep crisis. We run the risk of being too late and we are talking about disruption to people’s lives here. The govt is either there or not there when the people need help. It is their time to show leadership, jump ahead of the problems that are coming…and I think the people will appreciate.
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If they wait and see, be reactive lets see the problems first then give out aid according – this is very optimal from a resource management point of view….but they are going to face exactly the same issues they did with the handling of the Lehman minibonds issue. Even if it was resolved at the end, people will remember the lack of leadership in the beginning.

:::::There is a need for INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY. Our people are already very wimpy and un-hungry. Your proposals will exacerbate the situation and make them even more UNCOMPETITIVE ::::

When a person needs help, some help has to be given, regardless of how he got to that state. If your house is on fire, the fire man is not going to come and ask why you keep so much flamables in house to cause a fire.

There was this debate in the 1920s on whether putting erasers on pencils will cause people to make more mistakes. But they found out that productivity increases because people know they can correct their mistakes and will be able to write faster. During the campaign trail, someone asked Obama why should jobless benefits be given and whether it will cause people to be dependent. Obama replied that the society will be better off as a whole if people take some risk in their lives be it starting business, trying a new job etc. When they get into trouble, the state should step in and give some aid for them to move along but not too much to be too comfortable. Will flying trapeze be able to do triple summersault if there was no safety net to catch them if they fall?

Why was Lily Neo scream in parliament a few months ago?

Beats the KTM. Maybe her hairdo costs more than PA? The KTM’s view: these fellas dunno what’s going on and they are trying scoring political points. Or perhaps they want more people on PA, so that they dun have to visit them during the MPS and they have less to do.

The KTM has spoken to quite number of social workers who work directly with the poor and elderly. Around 10.? Their UNANIMOUS view was that the PA is sufficient ‘cos there are MANY sources of help available. The KTM is just some random kaypoh (not the Finance Minister in disguise) so these social workers have no reason to lie to the KTM.

Do you work with the poor and elderly on PA? Have you spoken with social workers who do? Pls don’t lecture the KTM from your armchair.

Already we see the stats on 30,000(from memory) households defaulting on their utilities bill, may be they are not dying but there is enormous financial strain. Is the govt suppose to help these people with their problems?

They should go and learn how to deal. Costs of living going up, going down regardless. Just wait for the KTM’s post on handouts.

Make sure the people are okay 1st?

This recession will likely last 2 or 3 years. Beyond that, it becomes a Depression and we can deal accordingly.

For now, people should go and learn how to cope with seasonal economic downturns. The Govt should try its best as the KTM believes it has done to ensure that jobs are kept.

There is a need for INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY. Our people are already very wimpy and un-hungry. Your proposals will exacerbate the situation and make them even more UNCOMPETITIVE when the recession lifts.

Struggling families – stories aplenty from social workers and the children are adversely impacted.

There is however one thing that we agree about – and that’s the children. *sigh* The KTM believes that we should do more for the children – while the grown ups should go and learn how to deal. The conundrum however is how to give more targeted aid to the young.

::::KTM’s view: if jobless people really need help, go and see MP. MPs actually have access to quite a large amount of money through the ComCare Fund if the KTM is not wrong. MPs should also learn their pay by deciding who needs help and how much on a case-by-case basis. ::::
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Have you been paying attention in the recent parliament sitting?! The PAP MPs whom the people are seeing are citing numerous examples of people ruled out due to various criteria. It is the MPs who are saying they can’t get help for the people they feel deserve help. Why was Lily Neo scream in parliament a few months ago? These are PAP MPs and I applaud every single one of them for doing their jobs.
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:::::Demonstrate to the KTM that people cannot survive with a job. The KTM doesn’t see people drop like flies when they have a job. Yes, some people have to struggle, but such is life what. Is the Govt’s job to ENSURE that everyone has a good life?::::
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Now I see very clearly were we disagree. On how much our fellow Singaporeans have to suffer before the govt step in. People like I said can survive on maggie mee. …but I would throw in electricity, water, proper meals, children’s education, etc which I consider basic necessities. The govt does not ENSURE people have a good life …just that they don’t suffer unnecessarily. Already we see the stats on 30,000(from memory) households defaulting on their utilities bill, may be they are not dying but there is enormous financial strain. Is the govt suppose to help these people with their problems? It is after all their problems…but many of these people have just fallen through because cost of living went up much faster than their income.
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:::No, we have to PREVENT this point from coming. That’s the KTM’s view. :::
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I also HOPE…but have you seen the latest export numbers…please visit my blog. It is bleak, black, ugly and not a glimmer of hope. Shouldn’t ` we play it safer? Make sure the people are okay 1st? I can understand the moral hazards and the slippery slope…but I also see unnecessary distress of innocent victims of this crisis. They can go to the MPs. ..but it is the MPs whose hands are tied. The last crisis people went to the MP, the MP had a thick cheque book, he gives $50, $100 ..based on the story of the person there tells him. For $50, the person might skip the doctor and have no lights.
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KTM, lets not see any dead bodies. Struggling families – stories aplenty from social workers and the children are adversely impacted. As we err on the side of caution and conservative values, this is the biggest crisis of our lifetime…my suggestion is we should be worried about doing too little to help.

I’ve not heard Buffett say anything about jobless benefits and Obama whom he supports is not against jobless benefits.

Then go and read more. Just because Buffett supports Obama doesn’t mean that he will agree with all Obama’s policies. Perhaps if the Republican had someone better than McCain to offer, Buffett might not have supported Obama? Let’s not go into the domain of mind reading. Suffices to say that the KTM believes that given his understand of Buffett’s econo-political views, Buffett is unlikely to be a support of unemployment benefits. The KTM would be keen to learn otherwise.

1. It is easy to argue against giving jobless benefits using disincentive to work, abuse, unsustainability etc. Heck if JCS can help everyone who needs a job to get one why bother to help the jobless.

KTM’s view: if jobless people really need help, go and see MP. MPs actually have access to quite a large amount of money through the ComCare Fund if the KTM is not wrong. MPs should also learn their pay by deciding who needs help and how much on a case-by-case basis.

2. There is only reasons to help the jobless NECESSITY and it has to be good for our society in the long run.

Couldn’t parse this point. Don’t understand what you’re trying to say.

3. If people can survive without aid, then forget it. …but is that the case? People can’t even survive with jobs that is why the govt gives out workfare to supplement their income. Workfare itself have the similar problem as welfare – it is a disincentive for people to seek out higher skill jobs, go for training and the govt is giving this extra money for no extra work. Why did they do it because it was NECESSARY.

Demonstrate to the KTM that people cannot survive with a job. The KTM doesn’t see people drop like flies when they have a job. Yes, some people have to struggle, but such is life what. Is the Govt’s job to ENSURE that everyone has a good life? The KTM doesn’t think so. Some people definitely deserve what they get.

4. Why do I think it will be necessary for direct help the jobless? The low savings and high debt levels prior to the recession. During the non-recession period we can help the jobless by finding jobs for them, retrain them for new jobs and there will be light at the end of the tunnel.

Refer to Point 1 above. Go and see MP. We also need to create jobs for the MPs.

5. My point is the time will come soon when direct aid is necessary because there will be people unable to find a job and have exhausted their savings…because of the length of this recession and they have mouths to feed….this is the worst recession in our lifetime….we have to be prepared for the worst as a society.

No, we have to PREVENT this point from coming. That’s the KTM’s view. Agree that this is a HUGE CHALLENGE given that many countries, including the US, have failed, but we still have to try. The KTM still nurses this hope that it is possible to avert the scenario you’re painting.

In any case, did the thought of BORROWING even come to mind? People are asking for BAILOUTs, which the KTM doesn’t like ‘cos it creates a moral hazard. The KTM will stop here. Still owes you a long exposition against handouts.

What have I proposed??? I don’t remember proposing anything other than giving help to those who cannot survive without.
I’ve not heard Buffett say anything about jobless benefits and Obama whom he supports is not against jobless benefits.

My thoughts are this:

1. It is easy to argue against giving jobless benefits using disincentive to work, abuse, unsustainability etc. Heck if JCS can help everyone who needs a job to get one why bother to help the jobless.

2. There is only reasons to help the jobless NECESSITY and it has to be good for our society in the long run.

3. If people can survive without aid, then forget it. …but is that the case? People can’t even survive with jobs that is why the govt gives out workfare to supplement their income. Workfare itself have the similar problem as welfare – it is a disincentive for people to seek out higher skill jobs, go for training and the govt is giving this extra money for no extra work. Why did they do it because it was NECESSARY.

4. Why do I think it will be necessary for direct help the jobless? The low savings and high debt levels prior to the recession. During the non-recession period we can help the jobless by finding jobs for them, retrain them for new jobs and there will be light at the end of the tunnel.

5. My point is the time will come soon when direct aid is necessary because there will be people unable to find a job and have exhausted their savings…because of the length of this recession and they have mouths to feed….this is the worst recession in our lifetime….we have to be prepared for the worst as a society.

I guess you dun follow US politics (check put the Republican voting on the stimulus) but Buffet’s old man was Republican Congressman.

I’m well aware that Buffet’s old man was a Republican Congressman thank you.

KTM is right leaning not-so-rich everyman (or so he says). Like Joe the Plumber (apparently).

The KTM is not yet a billionaire lah, but he doubts he’s your everyday Joe the Plumber. Did the KTM every make any claims on his wealth? He just said that he’s not as rich as Buffet.

You are the one who seems to be completely misinformed about Buffet’s views and political philosophy. Lucky doesn’t talk anything like Buffet. You think Buffet will agree to unemployment benefits like what Lucky is proposing? Go and learn something before you come back.

I guess you dun follow US politics (check put the Republican voting on the stimulus) but Buffet’s old man was Republican Congressman.

Lucky is a left leaning millionaire. Like Buffet on a smaller scale (apparently).
KTM is right leaning not-so-rich everyman (or so he says). Like Joe the Plumber (apparently).

I guess we have differing ideas about what the context should the analogy be applied in. Thanks for pointing out the various contexts in detail. I’ll spend some time thinking about the different contexts and revisit my thoughts on the JCS. That’s the least I can do to show my appreciation for you taking the time to explain yourself in such a detailed manner.

Happy Valentine’s Day!

You used to be more balanced but … anyway this trickle down pro-business PAP/Republican ideology is precisely why the brown stuff is hitting the ceiling :-p

Not sure what you mean by “used to be more balanced”. The KTM believes that he is actually fairly consistent and if you read the sorts of rubbish the KTM has been spouting, it shouldn’t be a surprise that the KTM’s econo-political stance is pro-business/moderate Republican and definitely not leftist Democrat by a long shot.

But frankly, such labelling is quite unhelpful ‘cos it gives the impression that there are only two possibilities, either Republican or Democrat. You’re either pro-business or pro-labour? Life is more complicated than that. People often have different positions re: different policies. Among all the socio-political views that the KTM has read about, he thinks his political views are closest to those of Warren Buffet, who strangely enough happens to be a registered Democrat. Unfortunately, that hasn’t translated to equivalent wealth.

Believe it or not, HDB (and other loan) defaults are already creeping up.
Yeah, that’s probably because HDB doesn’t dare foreclose, so the KTM really doesn’t understand what people are worried about. If HDB throws anyone out on the street in the middle of this Recession, the story will definitely find itself on the theonlinecitizen and then later the New Paper.

But Lucky worries too much about the people dropping like flies.

Strangely enough the KTM isn’t the least worried.

Out of curiousity, what do YOU think the reserves is for? To fill up some hole in the ground?

Pretty much. KTM is a miser and loves hoarding.

@Lucky,

Oh goodness I’m suppose to show you dying people for you agree to jobless benefits … You criteria more stringent …damn absolute….

Absolute numbers are easy to measure mah. Perhaps you can teach the KTM how to measure suffering?

In any case, the KTM isn’t being serious. Merely returning favour with your argument of “show me the numbers” .

What you think of the KTM’s suggeston of “show us how many will DIE” is exactly how the KTM thinks of your suggestion of showing effectiveness.

The KTM thinks that we probably don’t have much more to discuss with each other on the JCS and any further exchanges will probably be unhelpful verbal vibes so he will stop here. Been a pleasure discussing with issue with you.

Happy Valentines’ Day.