Comments, opinions and an occasional ramble
Universities should give Singaporeans priority?
A letter by a certain Ong Tong It was published in the Straits Times on Saturday, and in the letter, Ong said Singapore universities should give priority to local students, and more ridiculously, Ong suggested that MOE should have planned 12 years earlier to open up a fourth university to cater to the Dragon year cohort.
First up, local students do get priority. While there are many foreign students in local universities, if I am not mistaken, local students make up around two-thirds to three-quarters of the student population. Is that not giving priority to local students? Besides, foreign students usually come in through scholarships, meaning that they are, at least most of them, have really good grades. Singaporean students get a much lowered bar in comparison. I’ve seen people with B average or lower for A levels get into local universities. So what’s the basis for the claim that Singaporeans do not get priority?
And, to ask MOE to set up another university to cater to the Dragon year cohort is seriously ridiculous. Does Ong even know how much it cost to set up a university, make sure it has good curriculum and to ensure that good lecturers are hired? Training PhDs holders is vastly different from training secondary school teachers. And, what should be done with the extra places in the 12 years before the Dragon cohort enters, and the 12 years after the cohort graduates? And, I suppose Ong forgets where all the money to build the universities come from. They come from taxpayers. Would he be agreeable to pay more tax for another university specially for the Dragon cohort?
While it is understandable that there are people upset at not being able to enter university due to an unusually large cohort, this problem is, to a large extent, a problem made by Singaporeans themselves. Since many Singaporeans, especially Chinese Singaporeans like to have babies in the Dragon year, they should know full well what they are setting themselves up for in 18 years time. Sure, some people might have the baby due to unforeseen circumstances. Those people have my sympathies. I don’t exactly sympathize with the rest. If you make the decision, bear with the consequences. Don’t start wailing for others to bail you out of the muck you willingly got yourself into.
In anycase, for guys, they have another 2 years to reapply if they got rejected. For girls, they can always reapply next year. Some might say that it’s a waste of time to wait a year, but it might do the girls good to take a break for a year and get out there to the working world. I believe the relatively harsh environment of the workplace would be a good experience and the girls will become more mature by the time they enter university, and thus they would be more likely to do well for they will cherish the opportunity to be able to enter university more.
Generally, I agree that Singaporeans should be treated better than other people, but it should not come at the expense of lowering standards or wasting resources. Take a look across the causeway for a good case study.
| Print article | This entry was posted by Aaron Ng on 11/06/2007 at 12:27 pm, and is filed under Perspective. Follow any responses to this post through RSS 2.0. You can leave a response or trackback from your own site. |
about 3 years ago
Ridiculous. Singapore Universities not for singporean. Then what is the point of paying tax and not receiving benefits from your own country. This is as good as saying,’ Oh, thank you for your donation and here is ur sticker’. The best part is it is coming from a master student.
about 3 years ago
What if it had happened to you, while you were applying for the Masters programme?
Would you have thought so rationally then?
For your sake, and for the sake of humanity in the future, I hope you never make it as an academic.
about 3 years ago
Your argument follows the assumption that there are many brilliant, or at least, competent foreigners out there to fill up and over-subscribe to the 20% (or wadeva it is) quota.
Sadly, from my exp in SMU, it is not so. Coming from the business fac, virtually all of the top scorers in the school are locals. On the contrary, it can be very frustrating to work with many of the foreigners we have because they are totally inept, and have very very lousy attitude. It’s often to see them not turning up for project meetings and they go partying instead, free-riding their group mates. I’ve even a project mate (competent in English, mind u) that took hours just to transfer an account statement from print to excel, and even then, she mixed up all the numbers, even putting a figure that should have been in the ‘asset’ column to a ‘liability’ column. And yes, she scored horribly for the financial accounting module (the majority of foreigners, most of them competent in english – so this can’t be used as an excuse – filled up the bottom of the curve).
So contrary to what u argue, the 20% has become a quota not to ‘limit’ the foreigners, but in fact, it has aided them in gaining an unfair advantage over our local students. Now, is this right?
Regards.
about 3 years ago
Questions:
1)Do you understand the word moral?
2)Have you spend nights thinking before writing on this topic?
3)Who are you fighting for?
4)Do you think you are in the position to make this remark when the University that you are receiving education in, are the sweat, efforts and money that received by the government from all the moms and dads of Singapore for the past 60 years? It is all and that includes papa and mamas’ sons and daughter who are not eligible for local university studies.
5)What is wrong when the parents asked the government to give more chances for their kid to receive higher education?
What is wrong of having more babies. Is it our fault to have more babies? Isn’t that what the government wants? Should I interpret it as, the resources should not be spent on non-elite Singapore babies?
You tell me, should we Singaporeans have more babies when we know our future sons and daughters might not be able to have higher education?
I am once in talk conducted by the SIM-UOL. I was told by a British lady, UOL NEVER SLAMS ITS DOOR AT STUDENTS WHO ARE MOTIVATED TO LEARN.
Gosh, this is the first time in my life, a person, a FOREIGNER from UK who told me that they will not give up hope on the weaker students.
I question myself times, did I have a hearing problem? Those words should be from the MOE.
We are Singaporeans and it is the duty of the government to take care of each and every citizen who is motivated to be educated.
6)Last point, don’t you not think years of nation building had just gone down the drain? Come on what will a Singaporean will think when the government says no education for you because you are simply stupid? Let me tell you the days where people cheered for Singapore soccer teams, during national day parade, etc, had long gone!! What is 20 years of resources as compared to 3 years of resource spending?
I do not think you see these as problems. Never mind, if you do not see it today. You might see it 20 to 30 years later.
I tell you it is a big problem and simply disgusting.
about 3 years ago
Amatu,
I hope you can clearly where in my entry did I say that Singaporean universities are not for Singaporean students. What I merely said was that I am of the opinion that the local students already have the lion’s share of places, and I don’t think that local students are actually being short-changed at all.
I am just of the opinion that the whole Dragon cohort issue is just part of life. Sometimes, you really just get lemons. I know that rejection might be hard to accept, but it’s not a death sentence. I’ve been rejected from civil service scholarships, and I was upset but I took strength in that rejection to take it upon myself to improve my abilities to prove those who rejected me wrong. I could have always blamed the government, but that doesn’t help things.
Similarly, it doesn’t help things for you to try and use my background to insinuate certain things about me. I am sure we can disagree respectfully.
about 3 years ago
Mr Udders,
For your information, if I got rejected by NUS for my masters, I would go find a job and apply somewhere else for my Masters. And, I’ll force myself to make my mark in my field and snub NUS in future. I don’t need to mope over a place that does not value my abilities, and I will not serve in a place that doesn’t value my abilities.
And, just like my response to Amatu, I think we can both disagree respectfully.
about 3 years ago
wonder,
You said the UOL lady says that they don’t shut the door on people who are willing to learn, whether they are British or not. Yet, if you read Mr Wang’s blog, people are supporting shutting the door on foreigners, whether they are willing to learn or not.
If your beef is about substandard foreigners, then I will support you. I will support measures to ensure that we get truly top talents because we need to compete with the global brightest in order to increase our standards. However, if you are arguing that we should close the door to ALL foreigners regardless of merit, I am unable to stand on your line.
I have no answer to what percentage would be ideal. However, I still stand by my observation that locals are not so badly short-changed that we need to start drastic measures to reduce the foreign student population.
about 3 years ago
Folks should distinguish between the issues; namely that of university admissions and that of subsidies to foreigners. Unless that is done everyone will just be shooting all over the place.
Aaron,
There are those who are rejected, blame zheng hu and try again
about 3 years ago
firstly, cursing someone never making it as an academic seems dumb. there should be more people airing their views. in my opinion variety leads people to think more.
i’m not too sure about SMU, being from NUS. if the majority of overseas students filled up the bottom of the curve for financial acct there, then damn! I should have went to SMU instead! Nah jokes aside, personally i agree that there are overseas students who screw up in unis, i’ve had my fair share, but i’ve also had my share of brilliant talented foreigners, people who’ve shared their ideas and offered their aid when u had questions to ask. And in the classes i’ve attended with alot of these people, most of the foreigners are amazing. I was in this marketing group project with foreigners. Ok, one PRC screwed up, but the rest of us worked harder, and the 3 m’sians and 1 Indon were crazy. Its just a minor and we spent so much effort and driven on by them, we somehow got an A.
Now who dares to say they haven’t met irresponsible locals who forgot that the project is due the next day, project mates who go MIA or had stomachache whenever there’s a meeting?
no grading system is perfect, so rotten apples always filter through. I beleive everyone’s met their fair share of them, but personally I’ve seen more of the geniuses than the rotten ones.
if you’re scared just becuz you happen to be in the dragon year, blame your parents? don’t blame anybody. as a person, and my views of humanity, people get stronger because of competitions, not from being sheltered.
i’ve had friends in Malaysia scoring perfect grades in their JC levels yet unable to get into local m’sia unis, simply becuz they’re chinese. Do chinese NOT pay taxes in Malaysia? Do they NOT contribute to the economy? Compare the standards between the unis in s’pore and m’sia. I don’t think I need to say much more. Ask any employer, given a good enough budget, all things being equal, grab a guy, National Uni of S’pore, or Uni of M’sia?
I’m not sure about Aaron but from knowing him personally and for me, if we were to be in the over-subscribed batch, then we jolly well work harder because you know there’s a much bigger batch fighting with you. don’t blame the population. work harder. personally I was dumped out of my hall’s takraw team for years, simply because there were too many people ahead of me. some are better, some are not. whine your life away or work your socks off. I trained like shit, and finally got recognised. its as simple as that. obstacles and competition serve to make a person stronger. Ask Aaron about his secondary school results, his primary school and then compare them with his uni results. Ask him about the amount of hard work he put in. I’m sorry to say but back then, I never felt he was the kind of extremely smart guy who could nearly hit (or did you get it) first class honours.
and oh, do NOT forget that tax is not only being paid by singaporeans. Foreigners working here, foreign companies with branches here pay their taxes and play their part in raising employment rates. why not try to push merill lynch, citibank, exxon-mobil, maersk and a few other companies out of singapore?
sorry aaron i’m over-using your space here. another point (shud be my last), maybe in future if one of you or your kids get’s a scholarship to MIT, Cambridge, LSE and the likes, don’t complain when they inform you just before you fly there to study, i’m sorry this year we have too many locals who applied and therefore you won’t get to study here.
close your doors to the world, and one day it may close on you.
n aaron btw if you read this, do keep me updated on your wedding stuff.
about 3 years ago
Why don’t you just say sorry for being stupid?
about 3 years ago
kh,
Similar to my response to wonder, I will support stringent measures to ensure that the quality of foreign students are up to the mark. I can see that you have unhappy experience with foreign students, but my experience in NUS tells me that there also are irresponsible local students, and I’ve seen very hardworking and responsible foreign students. I don’t think we should try and generalise in order to make an argument.
At the end of the day, who wins the argument is not important. It seems to me that alot of people are interested in trying to prove the “other” wrong rather than to think deeply about the issue. I just think that the populist argument has been taken a tad bit too far on this issue, which is why I wrote this piece to provide a view from the other side. Unfortunately, due to the emotional nature of this issue, people have been doing name-calling rather than thinking about the issue.
However, as I like to say, this is life. I just learn from it and move on to greener pastures. I think that Singaporeans should learn to take rejection in their stride, use it as a source of motivation to improve themselves and prove the system wrong. It’s much better (and more satisfying) that way. And I speak from personal experience. I got rejected from 2 government scholarships but I got a job offer months before I graduated by a listed company (and I didn’t even seek employment). Now, that’s sweet “revenge”.
about 3 years ago
Mr Udders,
You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine.
By the way, the more you curse me about not being able to become a good academic, the more likely I am going to prove you wrong. That’s just my of doing things, i.e. I prefer deed over words. I believe this blog will survive for quite some time, so check back from time to time. You’ll get updates on whether I’ll prove you wrong or not.
about 3 years ago
KJ,
The wedding blog link is in the about section on the right hand bar. Bookmark it!
about 3 years ago
Aaron
Perhaps you could have said that Universities should give places to singaporeans in so far as their grades make the mark. Perhaps that could have deflected some nonsensical accusations about u being a white ninja among other things. Of course given the fact that many people are nitpicking on every little thing people say, it wont help much:P And the CJ Chan is worried about the shortage in the legal profession. It appears that there are several fellas who have some basic cross examination techniques
about 3 years ago
Actually, the issue is really simple. Mr Wang don’t want the money he pay for the taxes to subsidize the foreigners’ scholarships but the Singaporeans.
What’s wrong with that? He’s doing it to help the Singaporeans who can’t help themselves. At least, he makes a point to tell those Aaron and Bart that he is not happy how the money is spent and also the places that the local unis are giving to the 2nd class FTs from China and India. The best ones are in the US.
How about Aaron and Bart? They don’t even pay a single cent of taxes and expect the taxpayers to pay for those foreigners, who have their own children (Singaporeans) to feed and look after. These two morons don’t understand what the taxpayers want to do with their money.
about 3 years ago
*Generally, I agree that Singaporeans should be treated better than other people, but it should not come at the expense of lowering standards or wasting resources. Take a look across the causeway for a good case study.*
you have created a furor among taxpayers. mr wang really outdone himself by dissecting your arguments and airing their flaws dried.
if this is a publicity stunt, its definitely doing you more harm than good.
about 3 years ago
Unhappy Singaporean,
Of course, there is nothing wrong with saying what you think. But you might want to read more deeply about politics and governance before raising the “you don’t pay taxes” or “i decide what i want with my taxes” argument. If only things were that simple.
about 3 years ago
Zhixiang,
Mr Wang’s arguments are as valid insofar as people choose to believe them. Same for Bart, myself or anyone else. I don’t profess to have the correct arguments, because there is no such thing as an absolute correct. Those who think that Mr Wang are correct are those who want to hear him say those things. The same argument can be applied for me. Those who think I am correct are those who want to hear what I have said.
At the end of the day, I am not forcing anyone to accept my arguments, nor is Mr Wang. If you like what I say, great. If you don’t, great. All these ego trips associated with trying to assert one view to be more correct than the other is seriously hilarious.
about 3 years ago
The best part of this blog is not the entry written by the author; it is the “rants” and “debates” in the comments section.
Keep it up guys!
about 3 years ago
Aaron:
I can assure you my opinions about the foreign students we have are not due to prejudices on my part. In fact, for the 1st half of my 1st year, I was actually for them, and was also puzzled to why there was a general contempt and bias against them. But after working with a few myself, looking at the class scores revealed (the top pupils for FA quiz consistently had IC numbers beginning with an ‘S’, with the ‘G’s fillling the lower half), and hearing other pple’s accounts, I can empathise with the situation.
Having said that, I do not deny there are good foreign students over here. It’s just many of them are simply not good enough, and prob also because the very best are all in the sciences, and probably economics, but not in biz or arts.
about 3 years ago
kh,
Nah, I never thought you were prejudiced. It was just my “cheong hei” side showing when I brought in my personal observations of foreign students. Bad habit.
If what you say is indeed true, perhaps a more detailed look at entrance criteria is warranted. I disagree with subsidising substandard foreign students. We don’t owe them anything, and if they want to come here, they should prove their worth. So the issue (at least one of the main ones) really isn’t about foreign students coming in, but more about whether we are allowing good foreign students in.
about 3 years ago
Aaron,
How big is Singapore? Not enough land for many Universities right? If Singapore universities are not capable of giving chances to educate all Singaporeans. Please, do not invite foreigners. Singapore does not have enough lands for Universities to be like other countries. UOL is big enough to help students other than their very own precious Britons. Are Singapore universities huge enough to do that? That is why, there must be enough places to satisfy the needs of the people before foreigners come in. Commercial education can take place.
Unlike Singapore, everywhere, any country, they treasure their own people. Why is Singapore different?
Please you are a Singaporean and you do not believe in supporting locals, then I would regard you as a funny person. Future leaders like you would not be a supporter of me, for sure.
Returning to the issue, do remember Singapore is too small for Universities and places had been scarce for decades. Now, I bet is even worse.
Please do not bring up this hot topic again. It would only being up more hatred to the current system. I would suggest that you walk out of your little hut and see more before thinking of writing of such topic again.
Once again, I don’t hate foreigners, what I dislike was Singapore’s current education policy. You judge yourself if 50% or maybe more, of the Singaporeans prepared or considering leaving Singapore, how successful is Singapore at this point of time? Don’t blame these people, blame the current policies that are driving more people away. Nest time, ask your next door foreigner to carry a rifle for Singapore.
By the way, you still have not wined me over. Try harder, young boy.
about 3 years ago
Hi Aaron, i would like to apologise for the comment i made and i respect your attitude of dilligence. However, you might want to consider opening up your perceptions about the singapore society in general, esp as a singaporean.
I do not deny that allowing foreigners to singapore universities can increase the quality of education, however, i believe this can be competed on a different area, like business. Let’s take Japan as an example as everyone how technological advanced she is and how was it achieved? Did the country increase the inflow of foreigners into their Univerisities? I dont think so. It was achieved by passionate and hardworking japanese. I understand the situation between singapore and japan may not be similar but i hope you understand the message im sending.
To put blame on dragon cohort instead of the administration does not make good sense. Because the dragon cohort are not managing the country. Therefore, the responsibilities lie on the administration, not the people.
Of course, if one do not strive to be improve and take charge of their own destiny, the administration ability is limited.
Good luck to your future endeavour.
about 3 years ago
japan was hardworking, but from my limited history, they “imported” foreign talent in all fields from education to military and other fields which allowed them to overtake a China who closed their doors to the outside world.
the US rose so fast in their short span of history, also due to the fact they welcomed foreign influx. true, in the process there are many people displaced, but the country progressed fast.
while i do agree that singapore shud provide education for every singaporean, perhaps we shud look further then unis. s’pore polys and even ITEs have pretty good standards. singapore has opened up many unis, in such a small space they have already 3 big universities which are all of high standards, and I believe if the administration deem it feasible, a 4th one will appear.
back to one of my main points. i’m a taxpayer myself and i don’t think s’poreans are subsidising foreigners at the expense of singaporeans.
Foreigners who study here have to pay their dues by contributing back to the society for 3 to 6 years minimum. they have to go through a much more rigorous process of selection and granted there are some who somehow scrap through the scholarships but are not contributing, we should also perhaps look at some of our own locals who are not contributing. all singaporeans who make the mark are given subsidised rates, and they are free to look for jobs anywhere after they graduate.
this brings to another point, the rich who get scholarships. If the point is for singapore to help those who cannot help themselves, why are we even helping the rich who have too much?
granted the best foreigners are in the US, aren’t some of our very own brightest in the US as well? And how many have broken their bonds and do not return?
Many taxpayers always forget, taxpayers are not JUST us locals. Like I’ve said, there are a chunk of these taxes being paid by foreigners and foreign companies. and this chunk, is increasing. some, if not all of the money used to fund these foreigners come from the foreigners, not us.
about 3 years ago
Wonder,
I wasn’t intending on winning you over. I have always operated on the policy of expressing my opinion, and great if you accept, and great if you don’t. It’s not the end of the world for me if people don’t accept my opinion, or if I fail to “win” people over. The concept of “win” as espoused by you is a very narrow definition which I do not buy.
Next, regarding with your concerns, I think you have been unfair in your assertions. I have never said that I do not support local students. That is something you came up with. All I’ve been saying this entire time is that local students have not been short-changed despite the increase in number of foreign students. If you go to Singapore Angle and read what Loy Hui-Chieh has written (he uses statistics as evidence), the proportion of Singaporeans in local universities have remain at least unchanged, if not increased, over the years. If that is so, is there a need for drastic measures, as what Mr Wang suggested, to totally shut out foreign students from Singapore?
Also, perhaps you can enlighten me, just how many university places should there be? While I admit that this is no excuse for not increasing the number of university places, the fact remains that no matter how many university places we open, there will still be people who do not make it through and complain. How then do we deal with such issues? It is something I don’t exactly have the answer to, but perhaps if you are willing to take the discussion further, we can come up with something. That is what I’m more interested in, and not “winning” an argument with you.
about 3 years ago
Amatu,
It is perhaps very simplistic to assume that Japan created something out of nothing. Our government leaders also like to make the same claim, but don’t forget that in our early days, we had help from foreign companies and countries. Just dig up the history of EDB and Mindef. Seldom can people depend on themselves, especially more so in a rapidly globalising world. If we shut our own doors, we are the only ones to lose. The question is how to reap the best of both worlds and strike a balance acceptable to citizens. If I had an answer, I’ll probably be a minister, and not some obscure blogger writing here.
As for the Dragon cohort issue, hop over to Singapore Angle and read what the Kway Teow Man wrote. It is true that the government could have done more, but it is also true that Singaporeans contributed to the issue. To what extent should the government intervene to “cover the backside” of Singaporeans when they create a problem themselves? Of course, the government exists to serve its people and they have a responsibility to solve problems, like it or not. However, my opinion is that the government is a facilitator, and not a nanny. If you feel that the government should be a nanny, then your arguments is definitely the stronger one. At the end of the day, it’s all about what initial assumptions we hold in order to make our arguments.
about 3 years ago
“Let If you go to Singapore Angle and read what Loy Hui-Chieh has written (he uses statistics as evidence), the proportion of Singaporeans in local universities have remain at least unchanged, if not increased, over the years. If that is so, is there a need for drastic measures, as what Mr Wang suggested, to totally shut out foreign students from Singapore?”
————————————————————————–
Let assume that the university have only 100 spaces for a course. It can’t admit more, because your lecture theatre has only 100 seats etc.
Simply put, the infrastructure cannot support even 1 more student.
Of these 100 students, 90% (90 spaces) is restricted to local students, while 10% (10 spaces) are for foreigners.
Given that restriction, if there are 91 local straight A students (assume all same grades), there will be 1 student that is not admitted. Athough he/she is as brillant as the other 90 straight A student.
Are you saying that it is fair that 1 brillant local student has to be dissapointed, just because the university die die has to admit 10% foreign students?
if a foreign student has same grade as the local student, the local student does not get admitted because of the quota, but the foreign student still gets in?
What a farce.
about 3 years ago
Merv,
Is it indeed true that we have 91% straight A students this year? As it stands now, if we ask the foreign students to leave, those who are getting in are not straight As, but probably straight Cs. Will you support such a policy?
about 3 years ago
Kaijun,
What you mean is, there is no difference between Singaporeans and Foreigners? Bare in mind, foreigners who worked in Singapore had to pay tax because they are taking up job which arises from the resource being invested by the government on behalf of Singaporeans. Then, there is no point discussing on this issue.
Like wise, if a foreigner on a Singapore government study grant had to “pay back” by giving up 3 years of their life in Singapore, working, is “returning” the resources to Singaporeans by contributing to the Singapore’s economy. (Do not forget this brings in another issue. In future they are earning Singapore dollars and taking up Singaporeans’ work positions.)
So, what the point if it is done in the expense of those older workers or those students who are academically weaker? Come on, do not forget we have extra responsibility… does foreigners have? You think you will love a county who wants you to contribute more when they are reluctant to help you. I believe you can think better than this.
Another point to add on Japan, if I am not wrong, they are working on their people rather than grooming foreign talents and they don’t accept immigrant. This brings in pride to their race. What Singapore has now? Don’t you agree with me Singaporeans are loosing the pride of holding the pink IC?
Aron,
Are you not fighting to prove to Mr Wong, me and the rest that Singapore needs foreign talents badly? Did I say we should shut out the door at the foreign elites? Please, I repeat myself. This would only be accepted when there are extra available places for them. Singaporeans should have the first priority to be considered. I cannot imagine that I had to pay tax to fund their education fee and totally out of question.
Local universities are non-profit organisation that accept fund from the mass public to educate Singaporeans who wants to study.
Locating how much places for Singaporean consider enough? Do you need me to remind you again that all Singaporeans should be entitled to a seat in the local universities if they are motivated to learn? I need to remind you that the comfort that you are in now is not because of the government’s effort but our forefathers that include all the uncle, aunties, ar bei(s), ar ma(s) you see on the road. Their children should have good education because Singapore owes them the effort to educate their children. Singapore had already pointed out that she don’t owe us a living which I think it is perfectly fine but I would not agree if this link to education.
Another point I wish to bring in, acceptable competition is fine with me, but if so many people are complaining about the inequality treatment and the government still do nothing, something must be seriously wrong. I am glad to hear that the cap for the foreigner’s intake had not increase. Nothing to be happy about, announcing this piece of news, seriously.
SOCIAL RESPONSIBILITIES not really that important? Think about it.
about 3 years ago
Wonder,
For the record, it was Mr Wang who chose to argue first, not me. He’s intent on proving me wrong, and not the other way round. The way he responded to Bart shows how intent he was in being “right”, which I don’t think is healthy for discussion.
Anyhow, since you kindly responded with more food for thought, I’ll do the same. If I do not read you wrongly, you are of the opinion that university education is an entitlement. That being the case, why not make university education, like primary and secondary school, compulsory? We can open up alot of universities and everyone will be given the chance.
What will then happen? My opinion is that things will become the way it is for basic education. Certain schools will end up being viewed as “better” than others. So what if everyone has the same degree? It’s just like everyone having an O level cert. People will then find out what school you were from. If you say you are from Raffles or Hwa Chong, the impression is different straightaway compared to some neighborhood school. Who do you think employers will prefer? Is there then any meaning in having a degree?
You might feel that I am trying to smash your arguments, and I apologise if I come across that way, but I’m just trying to predict what will happen if university education becomes an entitlement, regardless of ability. This is perhaps why there must be a limit on the number of places available. The problem is, there is no magic number of places that satisfies everyone.
I’m glad you see the value of competition. The beef with foreign students appears to me to be not one of number, but rather, of quality and the amount of subsidies given. I can agree with doing something about the quality and the amount of subsidies. I can even agree that a cap is unhealthy and all should be considered on the basis of merit. However, the question is, will Singaporeans dare to challenge the foreigners in a free-for-all market for university places? I personally think that Singaporeans in general can stand up to competition, but they are afraid to. When faced with competition, there are usually two ways out. One is to fight and win, the other is to keep out the competition. I think you know which is the better route for personal development.
about 3 years ago
“Generally, I agree that Singaporeans should be treated better than other people, but it should not come at the expense of lowering standards or wasting resources. Take a look across the causeway for a good case study.”
well, “lowering standards” refer to result / grade? “wasting resources” ? if one more Singaporean given the opportunities to be educated in our own system that should be the most important point. Others is secondary. I think these days emphasize the word “globalisation”. Thank U.
about 3 years ago
Aaron,
. If Mr.Wang were here he’d probably say it’s a J vs P thing or even an NT thing. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to be right in a debate, and the methods he’s used so far to prove his point are valid, if a little snarky. Of course, I’m very interested in how you and Bart will defend your opinions.
Well, I think you shouldn’t take it personally from Mr.Wang. I’m quite sure he never meant it to be personal
I can’t say the same about some of the commenters, though, some of them were downright obnoxious, but hey, it’s the internet.
The problem with university education is not so much that people feel entitled to it, but that it is a prerequisite, at least in Singapore. It’s more economic reality than numbers of who gets into university, because if you go by percentages alone, I can easily point out that Singapore lags behind developed countries in graduates. That wouldn’t be a good argument if I stopped there. I must also clarify why I think it’s a relevant metric to pick (e.g. Developed economies are more knowledge based, and Singapore is moving on to a KBE as compared to a manufacturing based one, where the old figure was could be sufficient etc… In fact it is arguable that the old figure, in it’s failure to anticipate this shift resulted in a shortage of talent, hence the need for the FT policy. Therefore the number of Singaporeans getting university education is inadequate.)
PS. I still seriously, seriously hate the bumiputra bit. That’s an extremely intellectually sloppy argument. This isn’t one of your better pieces so it’s relatively easy to pick apart; we all have our days, eh?
about 3 years ago
singaporeans get to vote and not foreigners. well some people do think the vote doesnt mean much due to certain issues but it is still a vote.
in my opinion, apart from paying from the resources invested by the govt, there will be no meaning if this investment in resources results in a net loss for the govt. are they contributing more to help further improve the resources or are they merely using the resources? The amount of taxes being paid by foreign companies and foreigners have more than paid off the investment in the resources invested, instead I personally feel it is the other way around. the resource that rise from investment in the govt, do they not benefit singaporeans as well? I have not seen of any benefit that benefit the foreigners and not the locals.
exactly since these foreigners are “paying” back or “returning” these resources means that they are not totally using taxpayers’ money. therefore on the basis that these foreigners have talents that can benefit the country, I don’t see objections in having foreign talent.
as for the taking singaporean work positions, i prefer not to take the xenophobic view. Many companies, even foreign ones tempt to put the phrase “Singaporeans and PRs only need apply”. I’ve seen my share of useless expats but I’ve more than seen enough foreigners that are worth their money here. If we’re scared of them taking up our work positions, then we have to work harder and be more competent.
true, we have extra responsibility, and we do have lots of extra benefits, things like extra starting pay in stat boards for those who served NS, ability to buy landed property in spore while foreigners are on a case-by-case basis.
I would not say our country has been reluctant to helping us. SMU only came into existance recently. The spending of so much resources for the Jurong Island, the Bio-Valley and recently Springs are all aimed at helping to increase our employment chances, our standards of living. Without these to lure foreign investment, even if 100% of our people were PhDs in some field or another, we will be forced to work overseas. Or, if they really didn’t bothered, we might just be stuck on entreport trade (which also required massive resources and effort to improve our PSA) and fishing.
similarly, in the case of japan, before WW1 they were importing huge amounts of talents so as to work and train local talent. which I think is the same case here. singapore is small and talent leakage will no doubt be an issue as more and more singaporeans migrate. By having foreign talents and training them, there will be that portion who will become singaporeans and help strengthen the country. there will also be those, who will not stay, but in the process help strengthen our own people if we take in the a positive light.
I’m not sure about singaporeans losing the pride of holding the pink IC, but I’m not.
for the older workers and academically weaker ones, I’ve seen the govt introduce so many training and re-training programs. Academically weaker ones? Why push for a uni education if it doesn’t suit them? Polys and ITEs have improved so much, one of the companies I worked for has a team of directors who came from ITE and Polys. Do everyone who come out with a uni degree end up with a good life?
And I do agree that local talents shouldn’t be sacrificed just becaused they happen to be that last 1%. And that is not the case I hope. I don’t know but I don’t think they work on a strict quota of saying how many locals and how many foreigners are taken in.
and by the way, our forefathers, if you were to trace back, how many were actually locals here for a long time? Many had grandparents who only became singaporean after it became independent.
the friends that complained to me about not making it to local unis, were basically well, perhaps did not perform up to the required standard. On a personal scale, I did not have local friends scoring well and not getting admitted.
True, everyone who wants to study should be educated. However, I would prefer to think of education other than purely university education. There are other forms of education, each perhaps more suitable for others.
as for the current education policy, I agree there are many parts of it that needs to be worked on and improve. However, if we are to see the literacy rate of Singapore, the percentage of singaporeans having a tertiary degree, and then look again at the outside world, we’re not that bad actually. for a c’try with less than 100 years of independence, I actually think it is doing well.
it is always easy to find faults with things, but sometimes we forget to sit down and think, every system has their flaws, but sometimes we have to see their merits as well. NUS just set up their nursing school (last year I think), increased the intake for law school and have been making improvements to the education. All things being equal, singapore is trying to increase the intake in university studies. maybe not fast enough, but I disagree to say the government is doing nothing.
about 3 years ago
RSE,
I suppose Mr Wang might not have meant it that way, but it’s not a very nice way of putting things. I would suppose he could have been a little less abrasive in some of his replies.
I am aware that we need more graduates. That can be easily solved by quickly building new universities, but whether more equates to better is another problem. I am not against the idea of more university places, but I am very concerned that we are going to do the kind of things that we have done very well in the pass, that is, mass production (or what Bart calls cookie-cutter) degrees for anyone who wants a degree, regardless of merit.
Anyhow, the bumi bit was not the main point. It was meant to be a cheap shot at an irritant who’s been visiting my blog. By the way, have you graduated?
about 3 years ago
Kaijun,
Well said about the taxes part. Some Singaporeans act as if foreigners don’t pay taxes. In fact, those foreign talents (and companies) actually pay more taxes because they tend to earn more and enjoy less rebates. Sometimes I really want to laugh at Singaporeans who like to act as if their taxes are high and mighty.
about 3 years ago
Aaron,
Ah yes, Mr. Wang’s been pretty un-nice I agree, but no more than usual for him :/.
I don’t think the letter is saying just because you are a Singaporean, you should get a degree. No one in that camp is advocating that. They pushing for some guarantee of educational opportunities for those who are ‘good enough’. There definitely are those with a xenophobic agendas piggybacking on this issue.
I would dispute that reserved places for Singaporeans would lead to cookie-cutter degrees, though. In fact, the current scarcity is a guarantee against such cookie-cutter degrees in the first place. It’s very much like setting a minimum wage way below market rate. Many people have made this point, albeit indirectly. In fact, drastically increasing places is far more likely to result in cookie-cutter degrees than reserving existing places for Singaporeans.
To answer you question, I haven’t graduated! Which means I’ve still got time in university ahead of me. Should be interesting, because in NTU, the infrastructure barely supports the current load of students. So, Dragon intake, please stay away from my canteen table, keep away from STARS when I’m registering my subjects and let me board the bus to and from campus!
about 3 years ago
Kaijun,
1)First, not all Singaporean get to vote during the election. Please think before you write. If you want to measure the benefits the government gave us as compared to what we contribute to the country, you are not going to win. You can check through other blogs.
2)Do not complex the situation. What I mean by payback is in monetary term. It refers to company tax, personal tax, etc. For your info, foreigners can be entitled to the same income tax treatment as local if they are consider resident of Singapore for that basis year. If you want me to explain Singapore territorial tax system, will be very tedious. I suggest you read up yourself.
3)What do you mean by not using the resource? I said their incomes are derived from the Singapore, so they must pay tax
4)Did I say Singaporean should reject competition? I support competition as not to stifle creativity and improvements. I am just not happy as they took away the job of those older citizens
5)You refer to benefits again. NS liability will continue after your 2 years full time NS commitment, till you finish your 10 cycles of ICTS. Just to let you know you do not get a higher salary if you join the public sectors. Experience during NS is irrelevant and will not put you in at advantage position when looking for a job in the public sector. I am unsure about government sector. Buying land property with some benefits hooked to it is given to local Singaporean in case by case basis. Not all will be entitled. You are referring to one of the some little benefits which are only benefit you, short term. Tax benefits are only entitled to Singaporean or foreigners if they met the minimum taxable sum, judge case by case basis.
6)Come one Singapore’s population had increase in an amazing rate. You think big companies will want to invest in Singapore when there are not enough manpower. Singapore imports thousands of foreign students which will be due looking for jobs in the private sector as soon as they graduated from polys or universities. Without these companies investment in Singapore, Singapore’s employment industry will be in a bad shape. With no further information to support, I don’t believe the existence of SMU is purely for Singaporean. SMU marketed regionally for it’s strategic location of a university in a commercial area. The existence of SMU, I believe is purely due to the new Singaporeans which upset the chances of local Singaporean to get into local universities.
7)Come on, depend on individual, if you are those people who got higher order of needs, Singapore will not satisfied your needs. PSA’s port is already not a feasible solution to a better future of Singapore. However, the strategic location will still take effect unless other new regional situations take place. Singapore strategic position is now served as a backup to fall back on.
8)A first wave of immigrant in the 40s,50s,60s, is not the same as the current one. The atmosphere is totally different. Forefather came down to look for a new home as their country is in a chaos. Today, these migrate are here to look for job, an alternative place to live in. As a permanent resident, they are allowed to live here without NS liability as they are the first generation. Anything happen to Singapore, you will be in no doubt finding our population of 4M will shrink back to 3M overnight. Do your trust them or us, your own people? Agreed, they strengthen our economy, this will be the case only in peace period. Why not focus more on babies’ issue? More feasible right. Give it to you Japan uses foreign talent initially, but they fall back to using local Japanese when they are ready. Of course, this is obvious that substantial training is involved during the nation building. Is Singapore ready to fall back? I believe not. Again I stress, I got no objection to reasonable competition.
Finally back to the topic, you don’t compare academic to work, they are totally different. Education needs does not means you will be a future director. I am referring to the people who are motivated to learn. Please do not mix them up.
“And I do agree that local talents shouldn’t be sacrificed just because they happen to be that last 1%. And that is not the case I hope. I don’t know but I don’t think they work on a strict quota of saying how many locals and how many foreigners are taken in.”
I don’t really get you. Although the 20% cap on foreigner intake is there for years, I am still uncomfortable with it.
9)
“ by the way, our forefathers, if you were to trace back, how many were actually locals here for a long time? Many had grandparents who only became Singaporean after it became independent”.
I refer to the statement mention at point 8.
10)Please compare apple to apple, orange to orange. Please do not compare education, to those third world countries where their territory and population are so times Singapore’s size. Best of all Singapore is small and much more easier to manage then other country,
11)Read more and you will know why Singaporeans are leaving Singapore. Does this link to the pride of being Singaporeans?
about 3 years ago
Aron,
Put yourself into the unfortunate Singaporeans’ shoe and you will feel what Mr. Wong and the mass public (disregard pro-govt supporter) feels. He is merely standing out to and exposes the negative effect of those policies being made. I believe he wants some changes. I like to read his blog as somehow fulfill my needs. He can’t be popular without reasons. Basically, I think he understands people. That is how great “speaker” emerge as great leaders. I believe that people respects him because he had expose himself to various types of working environment. His is good as he shares his experience and his thought.
Yes, to have a higher education should be an entitlement, an entitlement base on the needs. Obviously, only the brightest Singaporeans will be enrolled. Excess seats base on lower local intakes would be for the foreigner to compete for. This is what I think ideally. I know it is not possible and hope to seek to compromise through new media.
Degree are categorize into different classes. So, I don’t see the problem as certificate speaks itself when dealing with employment. Universities’ image is a real problem, real tricky, but don’t forget these are non profit organizations. Thus, you do not need world class image. It is quite hard for Singapore to be an education hub because Singapore had no place for big campus. That is why “decentralize” campus are spring up everywhere in the city. Maybe this can be considering a small success to Singapore goal.
Come on Aron, pick up a stone and make a wild throw on the street, likely the stone will hit on a diploma holder. In another 10 years time, try it again, chances are you will hit degree holder. In future, you will not be surprise that a degree holder driving a taxi. People in Singapore are kiasu. If you don’t give me education, I go else where and come back with a degree. Same kind of degree and the only difference is the cost of the certificate. (I assume that foreign cert weigh the same as local cert)
Oversea education creates great chance for Singaporeans to immigrate. People exposed to new environment, if they like the environment, opting out of being a Singaporeans are high. For this I refer these people as unintentional migrate.
That is why, I wrote in YP blog asking them to let go the black-sheep and secure the rest. In Singapore, can you live without competition? The answer is no. If you don’t want to compete with people, they will think you are a trash on the waiting list, ready to be kicked out of the circle. Opps, at the end of the day, you are still in the competition. If you understand economic, you understand competition. Lastly, pardon me, I still stick to the basic idea that, we are born local, Singaporean, we should help each other. I will abandon the feel of national identity, and join the other lost-sheep, once the current situation turns bad and no way to turn around. In another word, I had gave up hope on Singapore.
Same to you. Plan your future well and you will be another great man, no matter at where. Remember the famous phase, “Singapore does not owe you a living.”
about 3 years ago
1) using votes is just one of the forms of the things that differentiate singaporeans to foreigners. My mistake to refer that all singaporeans get to vote.
2) in payback I meant monetary terms. With the same residential basis they pay the same taxes.
3) I don’t remember saying not using the resources, but my meaning is that their contribution is more than the resources that they will take up.
4) taking away the jobs of elderly citizens. that I do not understand. Low paying jobs, many singaporeans are not interested, high paying jobs, will secure young talents be it local or foreigners. The elderly who are well equipped do get their jobs. However, it is part and parcel of life that the younger generation will push forward and challenge the previous generations. younger, lower paid, higher drive, I don’t think its just the foreigners. Not too sure which spectrum of the job market you’re referring to, maybe you can enlighten me.
5) I have a friend who got a scholarship not because of his grades, but in no small part because of a recommendation letter written by his army CO. as for buying land, what i meant is singaporeans can buy if they have money. foreigners are not entitled to get land even if they have money. singapore students do get free subsidies from primary school all the way to universities. new hdb flats are only open to us locals. I could perhaps list a few more but due to my limited knowledge these are just a few.
6) as the case is, many foreign companies invest in singapore exactly because of the graduates that we produce. and i’m not too sure what is meant by SMU and the new singaporeans. but as you’ve put it, the 20% cap doesn’t change, it will not upset much of the locals.
7) and yes, working in Maersk, I totally agree that PSA is not feasible long term. when I used entreport trade I meant we would probably not survive. Maersk has been shifting so much of its operations to Malaysia’s Tanjung Pelapas port even though it is not fully up shows that even the strategic location can be compromised. However, this is where I applaud PSA. PSA has already extended their port operations to so many countries, that its combined overseas operations are on par with Singapore’s. For one thing, Singapore’s strategic location is no longer that strategic. Maersk has been pumping resources into Malaysia’s TPP that it might catch up in the next 5 years or so. However, PSA’s experience with port operations might be the one to fall back on.
8.5) I can’t help comparing work and education, because they are co-related. true that education don’t make a director. therefore I am pointing towards polys and ITEs. I do have friends opting for Polys instead of JCs then unis because they’re motivation for knowledge lies in these places. as for why I compared work to education, how many people really crave for knowledge so much that its not about their future career? I’m an engineer by degree, yet I’m in shipping doing co-ordination. So many engineers come out and go into all sorts of jobs, event planners, financial consultants, sales. throw a stone and chances are you’ll hit someone with a degree. Exactly because of this mentality that many people are trying to get into uni. But are they really craving for that knowledge? That desire to learn, or simply because it has become a requisite.
like you pointed out to aaron that overseas education creates chances for singaporeans to migrate, the same can be said of the foreigners who come here to study.
10) comapring apple to apple and oranges to oranges. So should we look at Dubai? Where it has been transformed in a time shorter than Singapore, but where many slums still exist there? Where the rich-poor gap is ever increasing rapidly?
they are also much larger nations with higher literacy rates higher than singapore, 2005′s report even shows Mongolia and China with higher literacy rates.
10.5) however my point of argument is not singapore now as a developed country, but rather the process to reach its current level. True that is is a small nation and hence easier to govern, however it is a small nation with limited to almost no history, no natural resources and no bargaining power at all. to bring literacy rates to the level we are now, I think it is still an achievement, which of course can be further improved and should be further improved.
11) I cannot stop singaporeans who wants to leave, people always feel that the grass is greener on the other side. I fully agree that as singaporeans, we should help each other, but as fellow singaporeans, perhaps we should also think broader and longer term that one day, in future, some of these foreigners, might just take up arms and stand hand in hand with us in times of need. just as there will be those of us who will want to leave this country.
perhaps, if we think of helping each other and singapore long term wise, think not of giving up hope on singapore. think more of how to help singapore improve, and work towards it, for us and for the country.
btw, if unis do not improve on image, do not go for a world class image, we won’t get world class people to teach the younger generation. Then again, some of these ‘world class’ professors might be here more because of having money to continue their research instead of the young ones.
in either case, i’m probably going to be late for work tomorrow again. damn.
about 3 years ago
Ahhhh…now i see where you coming from and the difference lies. hahaha.
about 3 years ago
Wowowo.. what interesting “Debates”. Continue to keep it up guys!
about 3 years ago
wtf is malleus anyway?
Oh i see…he’s v intelligent…an elite!
about 3 years ago
As mentioned, foreigners also pay taxes, so do foreign companies. Wonder says because they are using our resources, so they rightly should. However it is a case of mutual benefits. Foreign companies make use of our resources, they gave us benefits in other ways – employment, technology, etc. They benefit in their own ways too. But the point here is they are an integral part of our economy. Both the foreign talents and companies as well as singaporeans and our local companies make up the economy. If we reap our rewards from the performance of the economy, I would see that it is very flawed to argue that why should we pay tax to subsidize the foreign students. It is NOT only locals who drive our country’s economy. Take the FT and foreign companies out, and the economy might not work as well.
Secondly, the claim is that foreign students add diversity into university life. I think many people have talked about the wonderful experience they have in oversea universities – the different things they see and experienced. Which is probably why you have so many students who wish to go for student exchange programme in the universities. What the policies are trying to do is bringing in these diversities that people seem so interested in. What’s wrong with that?
Thirdly, this is regarding the value of the degree. If you solely seeks university education just for knowledge, then probably this doesn’t apply. But I would tend to think people still do have that realistic element in them – degree gives us a better salary. There is a certain infrastructure in place. This refers to things like campus size which is probably easier to fix, or it can be the teaching staff (harder to get, but might still be possible) and more importantly what the job market can handle. If the market only requires 10,000 engineers, would you want to produce 20,000 engineers? Now… creating jobs is not that easy. So suppose that the universities are already at its largest capacity already (in terms of matching the job market), this argues against increasing the undergraduate intake at the rate which we like it to be.
about 3 years ago
“wtf is malleus anyway?
Oh i see…he’s v intelligent…an elite! ”
Wow. you seemed to have a problem with me!
I’m merely enjoying the debate!
about 3 years ago
ChannelNewsAsia (July 19th, by Pearl Forss) lied when they said “Top universities in the world, such as MIT, have more than 40 percent foreign students”. (Recall that their context was made to support the govt’s stance on why our universities reserved 20% of the undergraduate seats for foreigners?)
MIT website stated clearly that “International citizens” comprises only 8% of the undergraduate student profile!!
about 2 years ago
If everyone gets a degree. then everyone has to study more. When are we goin to get married… what more increase birth rates at an old age…
stupid NS already waste 2 yrs of my youth… degree another 4yrs…
Opening up a fourth uni brings more competition for everyone else.3 in 10 gets a local uni.Now more ppl thinks gg local uni is easy…more people are goin to get disapointed if they didnt make it if it is becoming easier..Next time everyone is aiming for a masters in future.
you only think of those who cannot make it. Then those who make it lei?
happy? no? study so hard for what? anyhow study aso can go uni ma…
Ask any poly/jc person.. what u gg to do after ord.. 99% says go uni.. either local/overseas/SIM/ get job first then go SIM.. everyone wants degree… cannot get it…. find excuses…. blame foreigners… blame govt…blame those who already got a place in local U are selfish for their comments..blame life….
why dont you blame urself for not studying harder?
about 2 years ago
I’ve worked with local degree holders in certain companies that cannot even write a simple email in English. Some Singaporeans really don’t deserve to enter local unis.